File 40: Jamie Swaim and Molley Ricketts announce a strategic pivot for the podcast as Jason Heflin steps back to focus on his agency, though the show will continue to provide “real talk” for HR professionals. A central theme of the episode is Jamie’s shift from annual to monthly engagement surveys, which allows for “micro-movements” and real-time agility in responding to employee needs. This approach fosters anonymous, two-way dialogues that help leadership stay informed about the workforce’s current mindset during town halls. Molley highlights the challenge of survey exhaustion but agrees that hearing from people, even if they are upset, is better than the silence of disengagement. The hosts also discuss the “three-legged stool” of organizational health, asserting that HR, Finance, and Operations must be equal partners at the leadership table. Molley emphasizes that a top-tier HR leader should be capable of assuming an interim CEO role because they understand the people, compliance, and operational direction. Furthermore, they explore the necessity of tailoring benefits to accommodate five different generations currently in the workforce. The duo looks forward to upcoming live events, including a recording at the Goodwill Opportunity Center on September 16th—which happens to be Jamie’s birthday.
Core Chapter Themes:
- The Pivot: A New Season for Workforce Therapy Files
- Agile Culture: Moving from Annual to Monthly Engagement Cycles
- Anonymous Magic: Bridging the Communication Gap with Real-Time Data
- Generational Gut-Check: Why “One Size Fits All” Benefits are Failing
- Leading from the Seat: Why Your HR Leader Should Be CEO-Ready
Episode Transcript
Molley Ricketts:
Welcome to this episode of Workforce Therapy Files. Jamie and I are excited, disappointed, but looking forward to what it is that we’re going to be able to do together. And we have some news for everybody. So, I am not great at drum roll as I’ve been told, so we’re going to mentally think of drum roll, please.
Jamie Swaim:
Done.
Molley Ricketts:
Got it. What do you got for us, Jamie? Where are we headed?
Jamie Swaim:
So excited that we didn’t try to generate a drum roll.
Molley Ricketts:
Do that. Yeah.
The Pivot: A New Era for Workforce Therapy Files
Jamie Swaim:
Well, if we were to go back to the beginning of Workforce Therapy Files, it started when Jason, Molley, and I sat in a room and identified that our three companies were really targeting the same type of partnerships with companies. We were trying to find places where we could be long-term partners, solving problems to help companies thrive. And we were all approaching it from different angles, and we realized there wasn’t any competition. If anything, there was a lot of complement in how we work together. So it started as projects that we would co-op for clients. And then we were like, “We should really let people hear the way that this conversation goes because we just enjoyed each other’s company so dang much.” And that still is true today, but we are making a pivot because of a number of different reasons. But ultimately, Jason will be devoting his time and energy to continuing to grow the amazing services that CrowdSouth provides to its clients.
And Molley and I will continue to produce Workforce Therapy Files with the help of none other than Jim Ray. And we are going to highlight things that are still happening in our space. It is a little bit easier for Molley and I to get together because we live in the same community and have an opportunity to do that. But we are also using this type of approach more because Jim added white couches. And so now we are going to be virtual, because I don’t think he trusts me to sit on a white couch. And I don’t blame him if I’m honest. I don’t blame him.
Molley Ricketts:
Well, when I get on a couch, typically I like to get comfy-cozy, get a little snuggle blanket, watch a good movie. So we want to make sure that we’re focused and really generating those right questions to ask our guests.
Jamie Swaim:
Absolutely.
Jamie Swaim:
So, our hope is that Jason will continue to come back, from time to time, because I know that our listeners have really appreciated the way that our trio has chatted. But Molley and I believe that with the continued focus on having great interviewees for us to talk to and people who are out here blazing their own trail, we’ll continue to have that kind of content. And we also have a couple of opportunities where we will be in person.
Molley Ricketts:
That’s right. So a few things that we’re going to be able to do in person. One coming up in particular is the SHRM Kentucky Conference that’s going to be held at the Galt House in Louisville, Kentucky. We’ll have our booth set up for guests to come and chat with us about who they are, where they are, and the topic of the year. What is really impacting workforce and the development of individuals within their organizations and how do leaders become better guides for individuals in their careers? So really excited about the conference this year and what that can bring. Not only as opportunities for people to talk and listen to the keynotes, which are some great keynotes by the way, we are going to be able to get their time and interview them while we’re there at the conference. So looking forward to those opportunities. And I must say really excited about an upcoming partnership with SHRM Kentucky for the year of ‘27.
So thinking about what we’re going to be able to do to bring some more excitement and gathering behind all of the wisdom that the SHRM Kentucky brings to all of us HR folks that definitely need help when it comes to all of the regulations and things that change that we may not always have the greatest insight to, but the greatest benefit of being a part of something like SHRM is there’s always an expert that you can lean into that can help you find the right answer. So really looking forward to the SHRM conference coming up. And then of course, what it is that we’re going to be able to do, Jamie and I, along with the broadcasting wisdom of Jim Ray, we’re going to be able to do for the year of ‘27 with SHRM Kentucky.
And then we are looking forward to having a live podcast recording. The Goodwill Opportunity Center here in Louisville, Kentucky. It’s an amazing space that they have agreed to let us come in and have some guests. We’re looking for about a hundred guests as Jamie, me, and our guest, Gaby Jaggers, where we are going to have Jason come in and support us on that episode. So we’re really excited to look forward and look forward to seeing you guys in person at that event.
But really just going into the new year and what it is that Jamie and I want to do is continue to bring information to our listeners and the folks that have grown up with us over the last three seasons and learning more and bringing people to the show that you may not otherwise have met given their industry and the support that they can guide. So thank you, Jamie, for continuing on this journey with me.
It would’ve been a different, what some may say easier decision to say, you know what? We’re just going to say that this has been a great game and continue on as we have as business colleagues, but sticking together and continuing this into the next season of Workforce Therapy Files, we’re looking forward to it.
Jamie Swaim:
I think collectively, if we were to look retrospectively, we have probably interviewed about 50 people at the SHRM conference.
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
And last year we were able to speak to each one of the keynotes. And I’m really excited to continue to grow our footprint at that conference. Excited about the placement of our booth. And if you haven’t ever stopped, we’re easy to talk to, I think.
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
I mean, it’s pretty cas. So if you want to come and hop on a mic and tell us about your company, your experiences, the things that keep you up at night, any of those topics are fair game. So we look forward to chatting with folks as you can stop by the booth and share with us.
Also, I don’t know, I’m a little nervous about the Goodwill experience because we’ll have a live audience while doing this is a whole different thing. So I hope that you’re able to tune-in for that whenever we launch it. And Molley, I don’t know that there’s many journeys I wouldn’t go on with you. So I’m excited to be able to continue. And if you got one of the OG Workforce Therapy File stickers, that means that you got in early.
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
Jason, you’ve always been one of our favorite people to talk to and will continue to be, and I hope that we have an opportunity to partner with you and more in the future.
Molley Ricketts:
That’s right. Jason’s a cool cat.
Jamie Swaim:
Facts. Facts.
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, before we wrap, I want to make sure, is there an opportunity for you and I just today to wrap up this file and maybe touch on something that is burning for either of us?
Jamie Swaim:
I have a really random topic. What is the date of the SHRM Conference?
Molley Ricketts:
Oh yes, sorry. SHRM Kentucky Conference is August 25th and 26th.
Jamie Swaim:
In?
Molley Ricketts:
Louisville, Kentucky at the Galt House.
Jamie Swaim:
At the Galt House. And the Goodwill event is September 16th.
Molley Ricketts:
Why do you know that date right off the top of your head, Jamie?
Jamie Swaim:
Because it’s Mexican Independence Day. And also my birthday.
Molley Ricketts:
There you go.
Jamie Swaim:
But it’s also Mexican Independence Day, which I feel like is very impactful.
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah, it is.
Monthly vs. Annual: Moving to Agile Engagement Surveys
Jamie Swaim:
The thing that I had this aha moment recently and I thought it would be worth bringing up. Okay? So Molley, I’m going to talk about engagement surveys for a second.
Molley Ricketts:
Okay, let’s do it.
Jamie Swaim:
Every company I’ve ever worked for has done engagement surveys annually or biannually.
Usually the cycle would look like this. We would go prepare our file. We would go out and survey our population. And then we would put it together. We’d put together the results, share them with leaders, and then we’d create a pretty robust action plan based off their results. And we would work on that action plan between the survey completion and the next survey. But sometimes those actions would be a year-long, in terms of how long it would take. So I’ve been working with a company who recently moved to a new platform, and we are surveying our population monthly.
I was so nervous about doing this in the beginning, but what’s been very interesting, and I wanted to share this because I am interested in hearing any of the reactions, because monthly sounds like a big ask, especially if you tried to match the same cycle of how you dealt with the data that you received. But what’s been interesting is the platform that we’ve been using has the ability for individuals to add comments, to react to those comments and interact with those comments. And it gives us the ability to gauge how we’re performing every month as a point-in-time view. And what we’ve been using it for is micro movements because there’s so many things happening in this environment. So the ability to do one giant robust action plan would not be feasible for the environment that we’re in. And I’ve never seen this type of agility as it relates to the use of employee data.
And it felt really bizarre and awkward at first. But now it’s become such a regular cycle of communication and touch points and, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t know that was happening. Let me get somebody on that immediately.” And solving somebody’s in-the-moment question or concern or thing, it’s just kind of blowing my mind.
So I wanted to share that because I’ve had an opportunity to reflect now a year into using this approach. And I probably spent the first six months asking myself, “Is this the right way to do this?”
Molley Ricketts:
So Jamie, with the first question, I have a lot of thoughts, so I’m trying to think notes over here. So is this company, is it an established company or is it more of a startup?
Jamie Swaim:
It’s more of a startup.
Molley Ricketts:
Okay. So that helps. And the reason why I say that that helps is because if it were an established company, and what I mean by that is, I mean, there are some companies that are 10, 15 years in and still behaving like a startup, right?. But let’s say that you’ve got a really solid foundation of the services that you produce and the key things that you provide, whether it be the widget or the service or whatever it is that you’re doing as an organization. If you’ve got that solid foundation, I feel like monthly would be a lot, right?
And plus all the data is in HR that you have to deal with that you’re getting, especially if you’re not doing anything with it. But my original thought, a startup, I totally get that. You want to constantly keep your people engaged and the culture and the environment is still being created at that point. And oftentimes we find that the folks that are helping deliver the startup that are building the foundation and creating those consistencies and compliance are definitely going to be a different season of those 5 to 10 years down the road.
So I understand getting a monthly survey for a startup, a company that’s evolved and is more a solid foundation and continuing to grow the organization. I feel like that would be tough.
Jamie Swaim:
I think it’s tough regardless. The only thing is that when I look at companies and the way that technology is growing and shifting and changing, there’s so much about what makes a startup, like the markers of a traditional startup, that a number of companies are starting to feel like regardless of how long they’ve been in business or the things they put in practice. Because systems and tools, gosh, generations that are in the workforce, how to engage with folks differently, the type of industry that you might be in terms of how people connect.
So if your company is more introverted just by nature of the type of work that you do, is this kind of anonymous platform the better way to engage folks, potentially? I think there’s so many things that I don’t know that startup and non-startup is the right differentiator. It might be what works for your environment.
But I just have never considered doing anything like this with this kind of regularity. And it felt like I would fail the moment that we decided to do it that way. It was like, there’s no way I’m going to be able to create an action plan and show people that we want to do something with this data.
But what’s been really interesting is every town hall is now informed by what’s on people’s minds. Okay. Gosh, how many times have companies missed the mark with how they communicate with their individuals? A lot. A lot. It’s the number one thing that comes up on every engagement survey. Right?
Molley Ricketts:
And I think to your point, keeping your workforce engaged with the results and letting them know that they’re being heard. And not only are they being heard, but you’re addressing it in town halls. There’s power in that for sure. The thing that would worry me the most is people experience survey apathy or survey exhaustion. It’s like, we have to do this again?
Jamie Swaim:
Same questions?
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
Yes.
Molley Ricketts:
What are we doing about this again? Because this problem that I’ve had, because if you get…
Jamie Swaim:
I agree. I understand.
Molley Ricketts:
…the volume of people, then they’re like, “Well, they’re not listening to my concern.” Meanwhile, there’s this other group that all of their concerns are always addressed. So how do you balance that? I mean, I’m starting to get overwhelmed and we’ve been talking about it for five minutes, so I can’t imagine how you balance all of that. That’s like a full-time job.
Anonymous Magic: Bridging the Communication Gap with Real-Time Data
Jamie Swaim:
Yeah. But here’s the crazy part. So imagine I’ve got the capability that somebody has put in a question or concern. I send back a response because I know from the rooms that I’m sitting in that the way that you’ve read this is not accurate.
So I can say, okay, but here’s some information. And I can tell you based off of the information that. Sorry, I got distracted. They’re asking a question voicing a concern. I’m able to respond to them. Even though I’m identified, they’re anonymous. They can respond back to me. So we can have a whole conversation. They remain anonymous because I can’t tell who it is.
But there have been times I’ve had multiple conversations that have come out of the survey tool that never would’ve happened, which is magic to me because there’s so many things that by the time I’ve gotten through, at other companies, the survey cycle and by the time we are doing action planning, it’s sometimes two and three months after the survey closed before we are really at a place we’re ready to firm up what we’re going to do with that information. And that can be really stale.
And at times, I feel like unless companies are doing things like focus groups or things like that to really gauge whether or not they’re even responding to the data appropriately, sometimes companies put actions in place that completely missed the mark. Hey, you saw this trend and you went and you added Pizza Fridays, but that wasn’t what anybody was talking about.
Molley Ricketts:
Right.
And when you think about, I mean, that really empowers the workforce in your organization. So just like how many organizations, while they have amazing founders and the launch of why the company started is fantastic, but when you’re really able to empower people to have their voices heard, you get some really cool stuff too.
Companies like Ford and what they did originally to empower the people and we want your ideas. We want to hear from you. What is the next thing? The Post-it, right? It was created from somebody that worked at the company and they made this glue and it didn’t work the way that they thought it did, but now you have Post-its.
Jamie Swaim:
I really though you were going to make a reference to Romy and Michelle’s High School Reunion with the Post-it reference. And I don’t know, this much sad that you didn’t.
Molley Ricketts:
Well, I mean, we could do that. We could go on the road and say…
Jamie Swaim:
I thought the Post-it was created by Romy and Michelle. I really. No?
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah, no, it wasn’t. Yeah. Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
The point is valid. I just got distracted by the Post-it. I apologize.
Molley Ricketts:
It’s okay. They’re pretty powerful.
Jamie Swaim:
They are. And hot on the school back to school supply list.
Molley Ricketts:
Oh, Interesting.
Jamie Swaim:
I just wanted to share this with you because I know that is bizarre. And I knew that you would have some sort of reaction of what are you talking about? Because that is not what we ever would’ve recommended to any company.
Molley Ricketts:
Never.
Jamie Swaim:
Doing this regularly. But when I worked with Zappos, Zappos used to do this happiness question of the day. People were surveyed as they were walking through the building, but they would aggregate that information. And so you’re talking about answering a question every single day.
So I don’t know. I think it’s something to continue to watch. It’s working for us now, and I think there’ll be a point where it probably won’t because of survey fatigue being a real thing.
Molley Ricketts:
But we’ve also eliminated a lot of our other surveys in order to be able to focus and make sure that the questions that we want to ask our employees with some regularity are part of it. But it’s interesting, nonetheless.
Molley Ricketts:
It is. I would definitely want to hold you and me accountable. And I think we should definitely have this conversation in more in-depth planning. I would love to better understand, because we do within Incipio and the clients that we have, when we do just recruiting, we have day one, week one, 30, 60, 90, six months and a year. So those are typical for new hires for both the individual and the leadership. So I always thought that was a little aggressive. But for a new hire, again, trying to make sure that they’re familiar and comfortable with the pattern.
So I’ll be interested to learn more about the consistencies and the concerns that come out of [it]. You want to give people a platform to express themselves, but you don’t want it to become that session, right?
Jamie Swaim:
I don’t know that I don’t want it to become that.
Molley Ricketts:
No? Tell me more.
Jamie Swaim:
Okay. And I guess mainly it’s because I have never once been worried about somebody who voiced concerns, even if they did it in a way that I didn’t love how it was packaged. I get worried when people stop talking to me
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah, that’s true.
Jamie Swaim:
I get really worried when people go quiet. I get nervous whenever we’re not hearing that this isn’t going well. When somebody doesn’t feel compelled to be like, “That moment was trash and I need you to know why.”
Molley Ricketts:
Yeah.
Jamie Swaim:
That’s when I get concerned. And look, if there is a cause to have a session where people are really upset about things, then it probably meant that I should have been listening earlier. So I don’t get worked up about those kinds of sessions. I get disappointed because I feel like something missed earlier.
Molley Ricketts:
And that’s why I love you, Jamie. You just look at it in such a different way. And I’m like, oh yeah, that’s a face-palm moment. You’re great at that. We should hand out Jamie Swain face-palms.
Jamie Swaim:
Face-palms. Oh, that’s the brand I was going for. I want to be the kind of person who makes you feel like smacking your own face.
Molley Ricketts:
Dang it.
Jamie Swaim:
Yes. Yes.
Molley Ricketts:
Well, what is it? One more time.
Jamie Swaim:
What’s on your mind?
Generational Gut-Check: Why “One Size Fits All” Benefits are Failing
Molley Ricketts:
Oh, man. This has been a really game-changing year for me as a human and just the evolution of Incipio. And as we’re continuing to evolve and working with organizations and the opportunities that we’re hearing about as people want to partner with us to help solve for their workforce alignment, those are the things that I’m having conversations with potential partners about now.
And it’s funny that you bring it up from a survey perspective because I just had this conversation Tuesday, a couple days ago, and I said, “When was the last time you posted an employee engagement survey?” They were like, “We’ve never done that. So where are the things that you guys are doing, the add-ons like a discounted cell phone plan or same-day pay cards that you guys are looking to roll out to the organization? How do you know that that’s what you need to do?” And the answer was, “Well, that’s what everybody else is doing.”
So going into organizations and having these conversations, it’s almost like that’s not the right reason. If you’re doing it because everybody else is doing it, then scratch that record. Right?
You want to be the company that, to your point, people do feel comfortable opening up and expressing their concerns, even if it is what some may consider a session of therapy. But being able to pull it back and really do some self-reflection, that and the amount of emotional intelligence or the lack of emotional intelligence that so many leaders are working through and helping them see, where has that been this last decade? So it’s hard to help. It’s not hard. It’s difficult to help leaders understand that they’re working with five different generations and there isn’t one generation that communicates the same. So when you have that first generation and the fifth generation, when we look at the differentiators and the demographics of our workforce, then they get frustrated that no one signs up for health insurance.
Well, what’s that age group? Most individuals up until the age of 26 can still stay on their parents’ plan. So that’s why that demographic is not going into your insurance plan because they still have insurance and they don’t need to go anywhere else.
Jamie Swaim:
Yeah.
Molley Ricketts:
And then you have this other demographic of human where they want more insurance and less vacation or less of those things that they’re already used to because of where they are in life, the season of life that they’re in. And then the groups in the middle that some of them want more vacation and less healthcare because they are healthy people because they’re living a sober life and gluten-free and making sure that their diet and exercise is really balanced.
So being able to offer your workforce differentiating benefits, you’ve got to start thinking about that as we’re moving into a new season and making sure that you’re allowing people to give them an outlet to be heard. And to your point, monthly, annually, however you fill it in the middle, as long as you’re hearing from your people is definitely a game changer too.
Jamie Swaim:
Yeah. It’s been interesting too, because it has been a gut check for us about, “Hey, we communicated this and then this is the way it was received.” The ability to course correct before it’s six months out is amazing.
So what you guys can’t see is that our producer sometimes gives us notes. So if you see me get stumped, it’s usually because Jim has distracted me. This one was “Frigging HR” was what he wrote on his board.
Molley Ricketts:
And I want to touch on that. HR.
Jamie Swaim:
That’s what he meant.
Leading from the Seat: Why Your HR Leader Should Be CEO-Ready
Molley Ricketts:
I want to say that this year’s been eye-opening as well because as more and more organizations that Incipio is talking to and learning more about the workforces and differentiators that they want for themselves, the emphasis that we’re walking into oftentimes is HR is a necessary evil. And I know some may say that I’m a little biased, and probably so, but to really think about the person that’s leading your HR, the person that’s leading and driving forward, if they don’t have a seat at the table, even if the table’s two people, to make these decisions, if the CHRO and your organization can’t quickly assume the role, even if it’s interim of CEO, then you don’t have the right person.
And I say that with confidence because while they don’t necessarily have to have the financial or the situational circumstance from a CEO perspective as this, as an interim, they know your people, they know your compliance, they know where you’re headed from an operations standpoint.
So at least the direction and drive forward can be handled. Many people argue and we get into the discussion and free to do that too, Jamie, and we may need to take that to a whole other episode of –
Jamie Swaim:
I would like to. I think this would be a good topic.
Molley Ricketts:
“Well, that should really go to the COO. “No, no, it should be the CFO. And I’m like,” Okay, you’re going two different sides of the fence on both of those, operations and finance. It’s either going to blow up or they’re going to tighten the purse strings, right?
Jamie Swaim:
Or both.
Molley Ricketts:
Or both. So I definitely think let’s put that on the list of an episode.
Jamie Swaim:
I’d like to call it the three-legged stool, Jim. That’s what we’re going to call this because I think that it’s an opportunity to talk about the people, finance, and operational requirement that those three functions partner heavily regardless.
Molley Ricketts:
I’m writing it down
Jamie Swaim:
Yeah, that three-legged stool.
Molley Ricketts:
Well, Jamie, it’s me and you, kid.
Jamie Swaim:
I can’t wait. It’s going to be great.
Molley Ricketts:
It’s happening.
Jamie Swaim:
Yes.
Molley Ricketts:
Here we go.
Jamie Swaim:
Are you milking a cow?
Molley Ricketts:
No, I’m driving.
Jamie Swaim:
Oh, you’re driving. That makes more sense.
Molley Ricketts:
We had to get off the exit and now we’re getting back on.
Jamie Swaim:
Makes way more sense. All right, Jim, I think now’s a great time to close that file.
That’s where we’ll leave the conversation for today. Before we close the file, we invite you to reach out to us with questions, suggestions or other comments. We’d love to hear from you.
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